It is interesting how the median (average) for the Presa pennhip score has changed. It appears now that there are approximately 44 Presas in the data base and the average score is now .63. When I did both of my girls in 2000 there was barely 22 Presas and the average score was .59. The best (tightest) score is .38 and the worst is 1.32 (which they thought was interesting also since the scoring usually only goes to 1.00) Has anyone on this board done pennhip exams? I was curious how (if they did) related to OFA scores?
Pennhip Median
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 Presagirls |
Pennhip Median |
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Posts: 4298 (09/03/02 13:04:41) Moderator |
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RedStarPresa |
Re: Pennhip Median | ||
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Posts: 3058 (09/06/02 21:29:54) |
Cathy ,
are dogs judged in accordance to a Median? I mean if most dogs tested for pennhip had crappy hips , median number will be on the larger side. Am I correct? So do you compare your dogs to median (avarage) for the breed ? If so doesn't is lovers the standard? You said there are only 44 Presas in the database ? You would think there are much more , becouse anyone who's dogs can't pass OFA covers it up by saying they will use PennHip . There are a lot of dogs bred in the breed and only 42 OFA'd and 44 PennHip certified. Where are the others? Is PennHip still doesn't have public accepted results? Regards |
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Fadiga |
Re: Pennhip Median | ||
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Posts: 3 (09/07/02 01:34:09) |
I had my dog x-rayed for PennHip when he was about 5 or 6 months old. There weren't many presas on the database although I don't remember how many. Maybe 20 or so?......this was in the summer of 2000. I think that the .38 was already on there but the highest I remember was .90.
There's a certain amount of dogs that need to be on the database before they come up w/ the median for the breed. I thought that it was about 40? Anyways, my dog was .70 on both hips. He was free of CHD and the PennHipp people explained that young large breed dogs' sockets actually grow into their hips as they get older, thus making them tighter if I was to have him PennHipped as an adult (at least 2 years later). I was also told that this only happens about 20% of the time at best. Back to the subject, the lowes median on there is Greyhounds. Their average is ~.14 if I remember correctly. Neo's averaged .81! Anyways, PennHipp is accepted by everybody I know and even preferred to OFA in some circumstances (AB's). If you have the PennHip of an adult dog, that should be good enough for just about anybody IMO. When I looked at the Presas that were PennHipped when I got my dog done, the median was about a .60. Although a score like a .50 may look horrible to some people, I really think it will take a very long time until the Presa averages around this number. Breeders who don't OFA or PennHip are not helping the situation. JMO |
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Presagirls |
Pennhip | ||
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Posts: 4298 (09/07/02 06:14:43) Moderator |
I do have a problem with "breeders" only doing pennhip. It only gives you a number and how does that relate to any potential hip problems? How does it tell you how far the femur is out of the socket? How does it tell you if there is any flattening of the head of the bone? How does it tell you if there are any arthritic changes? IT DOESN"T! If the median is .63 what does that actually tell you? If the median was .50 then I would assume more loose hip dogs are in the database to make the median rise. If my dog Tyra got an OFA Fair with .59 how many more points would a dog need to be dysplastic? 2 points, 10 points, ????? That is the problem. Even with a .70 like you mentioned, how did the pennhip people say there was no hip dysplasia (I'm not saying your dog does have it or not). To get a report for pennhip against all Presas they needed 20 dogs. You can write back to them and request a updated report or just go get a OFA now if the dog is 2. I did the pennhip because I was curious with the results and how/if they related to OFA. You simply get a number...that is it. I think OFA is a much better way to go. Any future dog I have will only be OFA'd.
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Fadiga |
Re: Pennhip | ||
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Posts: 3 (09/08/02 00:59:51) |
Reason some people prefer PennHip is because there were some dogs that were getting OFA good or fair and then there PennHip score would be very high. I don't know that much about PennHip, but a lot of AB people do. There is more to it than just a number although I'm certainly not the one to ask. I forgot to mention that Pit Bulls averaged about .60 as well. Many are dysplastic although nobody would ever know by their movement. Like Presas, AB's, etc., they have a lot of muscle and extremely high pain thresholds so they don't show it. Sorry if I made it seem like I was knocking OFA. Obviously it goes both ways and maybe the Presa is better suited to OFA than PennHip.
The reason that some AB people demand PennHip is because some of their dogs will look excellent on OFA xrays, but the problem w/ the AB's hips can be seen more clearly w/ the PennHip method. They're not the same thing and both look for similar things in their x-rays as well as different things......Once again, I'm sorry but I have forgotten basically everything that I learned about what the x-ray shows. |
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Presagirls |
Pennhip | ||
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Posts: 4298 (09/08/02 11:59:10) Moderator |
Fadiga, thanks for your inputs, but I'm still not convinced. I mainly train with American Bulldogs and several people who have come and gone have bred their dogs. Most of them don't do pennhip or OFA, some do one or the other eventually, and the MINORITY do OFA before breeding. As you know dysplasia is also high in the AB. Some "breeders" are doing the pennhip because they can tell their potential customers "My dogs have been pennhipped." What does this mean? I think the average person would assume that this makes the parents good dogs to breed, not knowing what the score was or how it relates to potential problems. I have seen very few people offer to show their scores on dogs they have pennhipped......why? I would be curious of pennhip scores of dogs that did not pass OFA, but unfortunately people don't want to share this information. Too bad there wasn't a public database like OFA. Friends of mine bought a Cane Corso and were told the parents had been "xrayed" I had told them to VERIFY that the parents were OFA'd; look at the OFA papers. Well, they were in a hurry, wanted a dog and took the breeder's information as correct. Now the dog at 18 mos. is moderate dysplastic. The mother had a OFA Fair and they hadn't done the father (hummmm....why?) Now that breeder is saying pennhip is more correct and she isn't going to use OFA (hummmmm....why?) CAUSE IT ONLY GIVES YOU A NUMBER!!!! I think more "breeders" will start claiming this. I just got in a debate with this Corso owner yesterday. He is getting a replacement dog from the breeder and tried to convince me why breeder is only using pennhipp. I ended it by saying "Good Luck with your new pup...I hope you don't have to go through this again!"
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Fadiga |
Re: Pennhip | ||
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Posts: 3 (09/09/02 00:38:15) |
I would defenitely agree that a breeder who has "x-rayed" or screened their dogs hips and will not divulge any more is an absolute sign to not buy. A friend of mine recently got his second AB. The breeder whom he bought the dog from had PennHip scores of .39 and lower for every hip going back three generations. I would think that breeders w/ stock having verifiable good hips would advertise it (as is often the case), show the proof, etc. Saying a dog has been x-rayed and doesn't have dysplasia is what one well known breeder in the Islands does now that I think about it.
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