Welcome to the world of the Working Presa - a unique and magnificent animal we all here are proud to represent. We hope you will find this forum full of useful and educational info.
We will appreciate an introduction from you.
What's a "true presa" to you? If you are looking for a STABLE, TRUSTWORTHY FAMILY COMPANION AND GUARDIAN, with proven working ability and health behind its breeding, then you came to the right forum to gather information from. To see pictures of our dogs - EACH ONE A STABLE TRUSTWORTHY FAMILY COMPANION, see Red Star Performance Presas here: www.red-star-kennel.com/p...ction.html
For a gallery of 36 videoclips with these dogs' performance, see: www.red-star-kennel.com/video/video.html
To obtain a Presa worthy of its name, ANY breeder you contact, ask for PROOF of health and working ability (we presume you mean guard/protection).
Our breeders are being constantly asked by newcomers about the breed, which makes for an awkward position these days. Most Presa breeders claim to breed "working dogs", or Presas for "work", dogs with "nice drives", so the first thing we usually have to explain is that all Presas are NOT created equal, and that stability, trustworthiness and the excellent working ability of our dogs are a) hard to come by in modern Presas; b) unique in their uniformity and consistency. Breed HISTORY which tells you about the dogs from five hundred years ago, as fascinating as it sounds, has NOTHING to do with what is being bred in MODERN Presa kennels in Canary Islands, the US or elsewhere in the world.
Breeders of this forum are members of IAPC www.iapconline.com/ , they represent the WORKING STRAIN inside the breed: our dogs are tested and matched strictly according to their trustworthiness and manageability in the family, as well as their working temperament and functional health. While many organizations such as FCI, UKC, UCI, etc. recognize the Presa (Dogo) Canario, IAPC is the only breed club where passing of health and temperament (with protection) testing IS MANDATORY for ALL dogs that are registered in the Stud Books and producing litters that the organization endorses.
This is WHY our Presas are different from the rest. WHEN and IF they get bred, they already have their hips certified or prescreened free of HD and they have passed a Temperament Test which includes stability AND courage testing. For a discussion of Presa club differences, please see the following threads:
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...=309.topic
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=1.topic
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=5.topic
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=8.topic
Number one health problem in the breed is HIP DYSPLASIA. A strong word of CAUTION in regards to hip testing. Often you hear: My dogs have had their hips checked.
It makes a HUGE difference whether hips were CERTIFIED FREE of hip dysplasia by OFA, received a low PennHip score or just have been x-rayed or checked, which tells you nothing of the quality. Having a dog that has OFA certification and having a dog that has PennHip certification both indicate the hips have been checked for HD by a highly reputable source, but only dogs FREE of Hip Dysplasia AT FULL MATURITY can receive an OFA certificate. PennHip has no pass/fail system and frequently is being used by unethical breeders to justify breeding of dogs that cannot pass OFA.
For explanation of PennHip ratings, see the following, by Fred Lanting.
Source: www.siriusdog.com/hip1.htm
A DI of 0.4 is not all that bad, nor all that good. You can pretty much guarantee your buyers that the pup you sell them with a 0.3 will never have DJD (HD), but you lose credibility with such a guarantee as that index creeps higher and higher. You can think of an index of 0.4 as being "40% out of the socket" if you want to oversimplify the picture, since the readings runs from a hypothetical 0 (zero would mean no ability to move in the socket) to a full luxation of 100% out of the socket, or DI of 1.0
And another: Dogs with a DI of 0.3 have tighter hips and are less likely to develop DJD, while those with looser hips whose DI values approach 0.7 or more are at greater risk. Source: www.canismajor.com/dog/pennhip1.html
Since few Presas have undergone both OFA and PennHip evaluations, we can only estimate a correlation. For example, an OFA excellent Presa scored a DI of 0.46/0.48 and OFA Fair 0.59/0.59. This latter score is still lower than the so-called median.
At the beginning of the process, the median (i.e. the score below which 50% of the cases fall) for Presas was 0.59, based on the number of dogs in the PennHip database and their individual scores. It means that most Presas that were radiographed using PennHip method did not have very tight hips (and the extent of HD prevalence in Presas both in the US and in Europe is very well-known). So hips scoring less than 0.59 were recommended as suitable for breeding. As time went by and more unhealthy dogs were entered into the database, the median has moved to 0.62, i.e. towards the worst. If more crippled Presas are entered into the database, the median will climb even higher, scores recommended for breeding will rise, and HD will proliferate. Given these facts, one must ask for PROOF that the breeding stock DOESNT have HD on BOTH parents.
Here is a good example of controversy in scoring:
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...D=49.topic
While PennHip does not have the publicly accessible database, OFA does. To find out more about how to research hip status in Presas, see the following link: pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=7.topic
Given the scale of temperamental problems in the breed (weakness of nerve and lack of confidence are the most wide-spread), unless a dogs genetics has been proven through rigorous testing and training, you can pretty much assume it DOESNT have what it takes to PROTECT or even serve as a PREDICTABLE, TRUSTWORTHY, STABLE COMPANION. One cannot possibly know of the genetics making up the future pups' temperament if the parents are not tested thoroughly!!! As a club, we INSIST on BREED-SPRECIFIC temperament testing for our Presas, which was specifically designed to check stability, sociability and courage under pressure. Here is a link will video illustration of how our test is administered and has evolved throughout the years pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...D=47.topic
As the next logical step to our explanation of temperament, we would like to STRONGLY suggest that JUST BECAUSE a dog can be shown to bite DOESNT mean it can or will protect. There is hardly a website that doesnt advertise Presas guarding/protection abilities in some shape or from. Looks like everyone is producing dogs with working ability. Nothing can be further from the truth in most cases. We call this phenomenon, pretend working breeders.
How do the pretend working Presa breeders fool the newcomers who come to their websites with a desire to buy a dog that will guard and protect?
Firstly and most frequently, they try and sell HISTORY.
Next, they use pet stability tests such as ATTS, TDI, TAN, and CGC as indicators of working ability. These all-breed tests, which any Poodle, Beagle or Lab will pass with no problem, do nothing to test working temperament in breeds with guarding/protection heritage. For a more detailed explanation see these links: pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...D=77.topic
They are also fond of posting pictures of some kind of bite work as the only evidence (NO competition RESULTS, NO trial SCORES, etc.). Such pictures can make quite an impression on non-professionals. In order to NOT fall a victim to false advertising, you need to interpret those pictures. For an explanation of how this works, see the following thread: pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...=246.topic
Only videotaped training and competition performance must be presented by breeders claiming to breed for working ability buyers must never rely on bite work pictures alone as the only source of evidence. Only breeders who are not afraid to let others test their dogs can be trusted, period.
Also, when inquiring about a guard/protection prospects, or even simply a TRUSTWORTHY COMPANION, ask for parents achievements, such as TITLES from organizations which test dogs under PRESSURE, ask for names of TRIALS that include protection - if no such evidence can be presented, ask for passing of a breed specific temperament test that will include a courage test, like IAPC TT or WABA IronDog GDT, NOT ATTS, CGC, TDI or TAN.
If you don't have this type of proof, you should be more then willing to assume there is NONE because dogs are incapable to deliver and/or the breeder doesn't care enough for these qualities to want to prove their stock. In either case, that should take them off a list of reputable sources.
If you were looking for a capable working dog, but got your pup from someone who doesn't health and performance test, and your expectations are not met when the dog matures, it means that you haven't done you research. DO NOT BLAME THE BREED.
Breeders that belong to IAPC rely on a network of professional helpers and trainers who are familiar with the breed. Dogs that are purchased from our club and trained within this network are guaranteed to perform according to expectations (see link pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...=229.topic ).
As the next step, we suggest you read the "Attention New Members", "Articles", and "Hall of Fame" and "Hall of Shame" forums to figure out what people here consider important and worthy about Presas, what is expected from a Presa breeder, what we here value these dogs for - that's the reason why those threads are collected there. This is not a place to collect Internet gossip, but if you are looking for facts and proof of functionality, adherence to performance standards in breeding and testing - you will find all this information in various formats throughout the above forums.
Regards,
IAPC
We will appreciate an introduction from you.
What's a "true presa" to you? If you are looking for a STABLE, TRUSTWORTHY FAMILY COMPANION AND GUARDIAN, with proven working ability and health behind its breeding, then you came to the right forum to gather information from. To see pictures of our dogs - EACH ONE A STABLE TRUSTWORTHY FAMILY COMPANION, see Red Star Performance Presas here: www.red-star-kennel.com/p...ction.html
For a gallery of 36 videoclips with these dogs' performance, see: www.red-star-kennel.com/video/video.html
To obtain a Presa worthy of its name, ANY breeder you contact, ask for PROOF of health and working ability (we presume you mean guard/protection).
Our breeders are being constantly asked by newcomers about the breed, which makes for an awkward position these days. Most Presa breeders claim to breed "working dogs", or Presas for "work", dogs with "nice drives", so the first thing we usually have to explain is that all Presas are NOT created equal, and that stability, trustworthiness and the excellent working ability of our dogs are a) hard to come by in modern Presas; b) unique in their uniformity and consistency. Breed HISTORY which tells you about the dogs from five hundred years ago, as fascinating as it sounds, has NOTHING to do with what is being bred in MODERN Presa kennels in Canary Islands, the US or elsewhere in the world.
Breeders of this forum are members of IAPC www.iapconline.com/ , they represent the WORKING STRAIN inside the breed: our dogs are tested and matched strictly according to their trustworthiness and manageability in the family, as well as their working temperament and functional health. While many organizations such as FCI, UKC, UCI, etc. recognize the Presa (Dogo) Canario, IAPC is the only breed club where passing of health and temperament (with protection) testing IS MANDATORY for ALL dogs that are registered in the Stud Books and producing litters that the organization endorses.
This is WHY our Presas are different from the rest. WHEN and IF they get bred, they already have their hips certified or prescreened free of HD and they have passed a Temperament Test which includes stability AND courage testing. For a discussion of Presa club differences, please see the following threads:
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...=309.topic
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=1.topic
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=5.topic
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=8.topic
Number one health problem in the breed is HIP DYSPLASIA. A strong word of CAUTION in regards to hip testing. Often you hear: My dogs have had their hips checked.
It makes a HUGE difference whether hips were CERTIFIED FREE of hip dysplasia by OFA, received a low PennHip score or just have been x-rayed or checked, which tells you nothing of the quality. Having a dog that has OFA certification and having a dog that has PennHip certification both indicate the hips have been checked for HD by a highly reputable source, but only dogs FREE of Hip Dysplasia AT FULL MATURITY can receive an OFA certificate. PennHip has no pass/fail system and frequently is being used by unethical breeders to justify breeding of dogs that cannot pass OFA.
For explanation of PennHip ratings, see the following, by Fred Lanting.
Source: www.siriusdog.com/hip1.htm
A DI of 0.4 is not all that bad, nor all that good. You can pretty much guarantee your buyers that the pup you sell them with a 0.3 will never have DJD (HD), but you lose credibility with such a guarantee as that index creeps higher and higher. You can think of an index of 0.4 as being "40% out of the socket" if you want to oversimplify the picture, since the readings runs from a hypothetical 0 (zero would mean no ability to move in the socket) to a full luxation of 100% out of the socket, or DI of 1.0
And another: Dogs with a DI of 0.3 have tighter hips and are less likely to develop DJD, while those with looser hips whose DI values approach 0.7 or more are at greater risk. Source: www.canismajor.com/dog/pennhip1.html
Since few Presas have undergone both OFA and PennHip evaluations, we can only estimate a correlation. For example, an OFA excellent Presa scored a DI of 0.46/0.48 and OFA Fair 0.59/0.59. This latter score is still lower than the so-called median.
At the beginning of the process, the median (i.e. the score below which 50% of the cases fall) for Presas was 0.59, based on the number of dogs in the PennHip database and their individual scores. It means that most Presas that were radiographed using PennHip method did not have very tight hips (and the extent of HD prevalence in Presas both in the US and in Europe is very well-known). So hips scoring less than 0.59 were recommended as suitable for breeding. As time went by and more unhealthy dogs were entered into the database, the median has moved to 0.62, i.e. towards the worst. If more crippled Presas are entered into the database, the median will climb even higher, scores recommended for breeding will rise, and HD will proliferate. Given these facts, one must ask for PROOF that the breeding stock DOESNT have HD on BOTH parents.
Here is a good example of controversy in scoring:
pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...D=49.topic
While PennHip does not have the publicly accessible database, OFA does. To find out more about how to research hip status in Presas, see the following link: pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...ID=7.topic
Given the scale of temperamental problems in the breed (weakness of nerve and lack of confidence are the most wide-spread), unless a dogs genetics has been proven through rigorous testing and training, you can pretty much assume it DOESNT have what it takes to PROTECT or even serve as a PREDICTABLE, TRUSTWORTHY, STABLE COMPANION. One cannot possibly know of the genetics making up the future pups' temperament if the parents are not tested thoroughly!!! As a club, we INSIST on BREED-SPRECIFIC temperament testing for our Presas, which was specifically designed to check stability, sociability and courage under pressure. Here is a link will video illustration of how our test is administered and has evolved throughout the years pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...D=47.topic
As the next logical step to our explanation of temperament, we would like to STRONGLY suggest that JUST BECAUSE a dog can be shown to bite DOESNT mean it can or will protect. There is hardly a website that doesnt advertise Presas guarding/protection abilities in some shape or from. Looks like everyone is producing dogs with working ability. Nothing can be further from the truth in most cases. We call this phenomenon, pretend working breeders.
How do the pretend working Presa breeders fool the newcomers who come to their websites with a desire to buy a dog that will guard and protect?
Firstly and most frequently, they try and sell HISTORY.
Next, they use pet stability tests such as ATTS, TDI, TAN, and CGC as indicators of working ability. These all-breed tests, which any Poodle, Beagle or Lab will pass with no problem, do nothing to test working temperament in breeds with guarding/protection heritage. For a more detailed explanation see these links: pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...D=77.topic
They are also fond of posting pictures of some kind of bite work as the only evidence (NO competition RESULTS, NO trial SCORES, etc.). Such pictures can make quite an impression on non-professionals. In order to NOT fall a victim to false advertising, you need to interpret those pictures. For an explanation of how this works, see the following thread: pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...=246.topic
Only videotaped training and competition performance must be presented by breeders claiming to breed for working ability buyers must never rely on bite work pictures alone as the only source of evidence. Only breeders who are not afraid to let others test their dogs can be trusted, period.
Also, when inquiring about a guard/protection prospects, or even simply a TRUSTWORTHY COMPANION, ask for parents achievements, such as TITLES from organizations which test dogs under PRESSURE, ask for names of TRIALS that include protection - if no such evidence can be presented, ask for passing of a breed specific temperament test that will include a courage test, like IAPC TT or WABA IronDog GDT, NOT ATTS, CGC, TDI or TAN.
If you don't have this type of proof, you should be more then willing to assume there is NONE because dogs are incapable to deliver and/or the breeder doesn't care enough for these qualities to want to prove their stock. In either case, that should take them off a list of reputable sources.
If you were looking for a capable working dog, but got your pup from someone who doesn't health and performance test, and your expectations are not met when the dog matures, it means that you haven't done you research. DO NOT BLAME THE BREED.
Breeders that belong to IAPC rely on a network of professional helpers and trainers who are familiar with the breed. Dogs that are purchased from our club and trained within this network are guaranteed to perform according to expectations (see link pub57.ezboard.com/fworkin...=229.topic ).
As the next step, we suggest you read the "Attention New Members", "Articles", and "Hall of Fame" and "Hall of Shame" forums to figure out what people here consider important and worthy about Presas, what is expected from a Presa breeder, what we here value these dogs for - that's the reason why those threads are collected there. This is not a place to collect Internet gossip, but if you are looking for facts and proof of functionality, adherence to performance standards in breeding and testing - you will find all this information in various formats throughout the above forums.
Regards,
IAPC
